Undead-Ancestral

    Hello!

    I may have posted this in the wrong section, so I'm reposting it here.

    The new location adds more tactical depth to the game, and I would like to suggest expanding this concept further.

    Main Idea

    Currently, we play as vampires/werewolves and fight undead monsters in Ancestral Ruins.

    What if a second version of Ancestral Ruins was added, where players control undead monsters instead and fight against the opposite race's units?

    The current Ancestral Ruins would remain completely unchanged.

    Suggested Features

    1. New Undead Ruins Tab

    Add a new tab where players can recruit and use undead units (with the same stats, blood essence costs, and entry costs as existing units) to fight against vampire/werewolf armies.

    The same rules as the current Ruins could be used:

    • Rewards
    • Army strength limits
    • Unit tier restrictions
    • Other existing battle requirements

    2. Battle Logic

    To minimize development effort, the existing battle logic could remain unchanged.

    For example, in speed ties, opposite-race units could simply act before undead units. This would allow the feature to be implemented with minimal combat-system changes.

    Obtaining Undead Units

    Option A: New Resource

    Add 3 additional extraction slots that become available once the main slots are occupied.

    These slots would generate a new resource used for recruiting undead units. The growth rate could be balanced by Gameforge.

    Option B: Necromancy System

    Instead of introducing a new resource, players could generate undead units through combat after a victorious battle.

    Example:

    • For every 10 enemy units killed in regular layers, the player receives 1 undead unit.
    • Progress is accumulated. For example, if a player kills 7 units, they gain 7/10 progress. After killing 5 more units, the total becomes 12/10, granting 1 undead unit and leaving 2/10 progress toward the next one.
    • This system would mainly generate lower-tier units. Higher-tier units would be much harder to obtain, as players would need to intentionally fight difficult battles in the regular Ancestral Ruins and accept significant losses just to generate a small number of high-tier undead units for this mode.
    • As a result, higher-tier undead units would remain relatively scarce.
    • Since players would also lose undead units while progressing through the new Ruins, this system should remain balanced.

    Unlock Requirements

    The Undead Ruins could become available when:

    • The player reaches Alpha status, or
    • The player reaches level 80 in the current Ancestral Ruins.

    Differences from Current Ruins

    1. Progressive Unlocking

    Before level 101 in the Undead Ruins, players can only access newly unlocked locations and cannot revisit previous ones.

    2. Daily Random Challenges

    After level 101:

    • Every day at server midnight, players receive 10 randomly generated locations.
    • Players cannot change the assigned level and may only choose from the 10 locations offered for that day.
    • Each location can only be fought once per day.


    Additionally, the level 101 location remains permanently available. It follows the standard 6-hour cooldown and can be challenged as many times as the player wishes. Unlike the daily random locations, it is not reset or replaced at server midnight.


    Benefits

    • Adds a new tactical game mode.
    • Creates more variety and replayability.
    • Provides an alternative progression path.
    • Uses existing game systems and assets, reducing development complexity.


    Thank you for considering this suggestion.

    Edited once, last by Vasa ().

    Bro, please use your brain when you make suggestion for adding new feature to the game, we don't want to read ChatGPT creation here.


    First of all how you imagine this could work? You haven't described it precisely what is this new undead ruins mode so I'm guessing it's not player troops vs player troops but extension of regular Ancestral Ruins where you fight with predetermined enemy formations. If yes then it is no different to regular Ancestral Ruins - only change is new levels but don't you think that making layer 102-200 in regular Ancestral Ruins would be very similar concept?


    I know battle model very well and in it there is very slight room for any errors. Adding +1/-1 troop more or less often can cause front collapse and can result in full wipe instead of winning with almost no losses.


    Current Ancestral Ruins mechanics don't allow for anything other than fighting against challenging predetermined enemy formations that are set in such way that you can defeat them with given troops CAP.


    What do you mean by:

    • "Remains less profitable than the current Ruins, helping maintain game balance."

    Are you implying that players after finishing layer 101 Ancestral Ruins should switch to "Undead Ruins"? After reaching lvl 101 I should lose ability of repeating layers in regular Ancestral Ruins and get "Undead Ruins" as it's replacement? What then happens with lvl 101 which now acts as a reward for players allowing them to always get gear adequate to their lvl? It's crucial for all who reached lvl 5000+ because as we all know armors, helms, boots, jewellery, shields and gloves end up at around 5000 lvl and only weapon section goes to 9110 lvl - the highest lvl item that you can purchase in shop.


    • "For every 10 enemy units killed in regular layers, the player receives 1 undead unit.
    • Progress is accumulated. For example, if a player kills 7 units, they gain 7/10 progress. After killing 5 more units, the total becomes 12/10, granting 1 undead unit and leaving 2/10 progress toward the next one. "

    I understand it as copy-paste of Heroes III - IV necromancy mechanic or something very similar but it would mean that in order to get any troops in "Undead ruins" you must lose around 10x more troops in regular Ancestral Ruins.


    I don't get the whole concept and what are you aiming to achieve with it. There is absolute no plan for implementation of it and I still don't know how it should work.

    AI have no clue about Bitefight game so stop asking it for answers, think for yourself and reconsider again if this feature you are suggesting now is really necessary? Don't you think that it would be better to expand regular Ancestral Ruins instead? Having 2 Ancestral Ruin modes sounds confusing.

    By the suggestion:


    1) current Ancestral ruins REMAIN UNCHANGED. You are about to receive second one, with limited option to beat previous locations. By the suggestion, you'd have both.

    2)

    • "For every 10 enemy units killed in regular layers, the player receives 1 undead unit.
    • Progress is accumulated. For example, if a player kills 7 units, they gain 7/10 progress. After killing 5 more units, the total becomes 12/10, granting 1 undead unit and leaving 2/10 progress toward the next one.

    I understand it as copy-paste of Heroes III - IV necromancy mechanic or something very similar but it would mean that in order to get any troops in "Undead ruins" you must lose around 10x more troops in regular Ancestral Ruins."



    You must kill enemies. For every 10 killed skeletons (ENEMY) you'd receive 1 to you. Necromancy affects enemy (!) loses in normal ancestral, not your loses.

    This will allow to collect low-level undead units in normal quantities, but you'll need to do a hard fights for high level.


    For other things, please give more concrete pretense - I'll try to answer.

    I DO undestand what I propose - I want reversed ancestral, it will be more tactacal and interesting to fight on both sides, and I do not propose in any way changing current, existing ancestral.

    Quote from TanarisJupiter

    "Remains less profitable than the current Ruins, helping maintain game balance."

    Removed this to avoid possible misleadings. Just wanted to note - this undead ancestral will be less profitable than existing ruins, but still profitable and still interesting

    Quote from Vasa
    Quote from TanarisJupiter

    "Remains less profitable than the current Ruins, helping maintain game balance."

    Removed this to avoid possible misleadings. Just wanted to note - this undead ancestral will be less profitable than existing ruins, but still profitable and still interesting

    How killing artificially created "leftovers troops" from enemy formations will be interesting? How those formations will form? What Cap limit, what lvl? Less profitable = why someone would like to do it when he/she can do "more profitable" regular Ancestral Ruins? :D

    Quote from TanarisJupiter
    Quote from Vasa
    Quote from TanarisJupiter

    "Remains less profitable than the current Ruins, helping maintain game balance."

    Removed this to avoid possible misleadings. Just wanted to note - this undead ancestral will be less profitable than existing ruins, but still profitable and still interesting

    How killing artificially created "leftovers troops" from enemy formations will be interesting? How those formations will form? What Cap limit, what lvl? Less profitable = why someone would like to do it when he/she can do "more profitable" regular Ancestral Ruins? :D

    Ok, but you say you know ruines mechanics?

    Now in normal ancestral you have power limit as (level + 1) * 10 points


    Your units cost 2 / 3 / 4 / 7 / 10 / 15 / 18 / 30 power points respectively


    Mosnter units cost 1 / 2 / 3 / 5 / 6 / 10 / 12 / 20 / 25 / 30 points respectively.

    Current enemy formation is generated randomly, to fill these points, but with some allowed ranges for units (you'd never see 10+ liches for example or very rare (I did not)).


    The generation for new Ruines could have the same logic. Nothing new or special.

    "Current enemy formation is generated randomly, to fill these points, but with some allowed ranges for units (you'd never see 10+ liches for example or very rare (I did not))." - that is wrong. Enemy formations are pre-determined and are repeating but not random! Creators added limited possible formations to the game and formation is not generated randomly by engine but taken from the pool - database of possible variants. Those variants seems to increase in number in higher layers but for lvl 1-10 predicted enemy formations are very much limited for example in layer 1 you have only 2 possible enemy formations 2 skeletons 9 zombies or 10 zombies and nothing more. For lvl 2 you have only this possible formations:


    1/10/3

    4/7/4

    4/10/2

    3/9/3

    3/12/1

    2/5/6

    2/11/2

    1/7/5

    2/8/4

    3/6/5


    so from 2 at layer 1 it jumps to 10 in layer 2. In layer 3 all possible formations are also 10 in total:


    4/12/4

    4/15/2

    2/16/2

    2/13/4

    1/12/5

    3/11/5

    0/11/6

    4/9/6

    3/11/5

    5/10/5


    and it keeps increasing in numbers of possible formations for higher levels. In layer 10 as far as I discovered there is 33 unique possible enemy formations in total.


    This way instead of processing and calculating each time game only choose one of the possible variants from the database and show it to player. It means that without changing anything to the mechanics game will use exactly the same pool of possible formations for layers in "Undead ruins" as it gives for regular Ancestral ruins resulting in very repetitive enemy encounters.



    I think you have not played the game enough. The amount of data you have is quite limited. I have 3,821 different confirmed battles between layers 1 and 40.

    For example, on layer 3, I have fought a total of 220 battles, and I have 15 different enemy formations recorded. These are:

    Regarding the other issue, you also stated that your simulator had reached 100% accuracy, but none of the results you provided were correct. I am quite sure that if I were to send you my 3,821 verified battles, your simulator would probably produce correct results at around 90% accuracy.

    Since you have not tested it extensively enough, the results may appear correct to you.

    I'm testing it extensively the issue I face is not the model itself but the formation search engine at the moment. I'm trying to eliminate old wrongly saved battle records. I have 99,89% accuracy on all my verified fights. I may have less unique enemy formations on layer 3 than you but we all know the number of them is fixed.


    Meaby your battle saving system is not perfect and saved you wrong results?


    I am aware of this issue on my side because my model was developing and not all saved fights may be 100% correct to the truth in-game but 99.89% are the same as my model predicts.


    Does your simulator have a batch testing feature? If you have one, I would like to send you 300 randomly selected verified battle reports in txt format. You give me the results you get in txt format and I pass it through my simulator and tell you the result.


    Or in the same way, if you have verified results, you can send them to me in txt format. I will send you the results I got from my own simulator.


    By the way, can you throw me the layers of combat that don't give the right result in your simulator?


    Does your simulator have a batch testing feature? If you have one, I would like to send you 300 randomly selected verified battle reports in txt format. You give me the results you get in txt format and I pass it through my simulator and tell you the result. - what is the point of this if we are not sure if 100% of those fights are 100% correctly saved results from the game? As I said, I'm not 100% sure that all my verified records are true because I have few stupid records at lvl 20+ with 0 losses so this is the issue I'm solving right now. I haven't seen any other results from the game which would be different than my model predicts for long time now. Probably I'm just circling around same repetitive fights and not having luck to find 15 layer 3 formations as you did. Our save format is different mine looks like that: lvl1: 3/1/0/1 vs 0/10 = [W] [verified].


    I can provide you few fights that don't give same results here u go:


    lvl90: 121/62/33/10/7/8/5 vs 15/27/24/26/23/4/3/5/7/5 = -116T1-62T2-33T3-10T4-7T5-8T6-5T7 [W]

    lvl95: 157/46/56/13/3/4/4/1 vs 7/12/8/26/10/11/10/5/7/7 = -109T1-46T2-50T3-13T4-3T5-4T6-4T7-1T8 [W]

    lvl21: 51/4/11/1/1/3 vs 0/33/21/17/1 = -26T1-4T2-8T3-1T4-1T5-3T6 [W]

    lvl17: 28/2/0/9/1/1/0/1 vs 5/38/23/6 = -1T4 [W]

    lvl78: 48/59/43/18/1/12/1 vs 15/24/13/8/17/10/3/7/6/4 = -17T1-59T2-18T4-1T5-6T6-1T7 [W]


    If your model predicts it then cool but those still might be wrongly saved one's.


    i wouldn't say those lvl 20+ with 0 losses are really stupid... i mean i haven't found any yet, but i have many combinations of enemies where i lose only 1 necro or 1 thrall and 1 necro.. so 0 losses might not be unrealistic.. depending on your setup

  • Maeve

    Added the Label Suggestion


    Not really, there were 12 possible formations in tier 2. You forgot:

    1-13-1

    2-11-2


    But today, for the first time, I found a new one, 5-5-5:



    I thought I had found an incredibly rare one, as I make that floor 5/8 times every day, but I just found the 5-5-5 formation again just now, so I'm sure the developers are still working on game and probably they have just added it.

    5-5-5 is not new, yes it's not common, but took a place few times.


    As follows to fill the power 5 * 3 + 5 * 2 + 5 * 1 = 30 (layer2 power). Same as any others you listed.



    But this is not really related to suggested thing. It's current mechanic, the suggestion is not about it's change.


    Gameforge gave a big update, they just can extend it. By proposed here way, for example.