Posts by krneki

  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    Quote from ajdin500

    some1 have this layer farming combinations ? I finish all levels and now I spam 1-14 layer to lvl up, somebody have 15-30 maybe?

    1: 7,1


    2: depends on enemy lineup

    if enemy 1,13,1 -> use 4,0,0,1,0,1

    if enemy 2,5,6 -> use 4,1,0,2

    if enemy 3,6,5 -> use 5,3,0,1 -> lose 1 T2

    if enemy 3,12,1 -> use 9,0,1,1 -> lose 1 T3

    otherwise use 3,0,0,1,0,1


    3: 1,0,0,1,0,0,0,1

    4: 2,0,0,2,0,0,0,1

    5: 3,0,0,3,0,0,0,1

    6: 4,0,0,4,0,0,0,1

    7: 5,0,0,5,0,0,0,1

    8: 6,0,0,6,0,0,0,1

    9: 7,0,0,7,0,0,0,1

    10: 8,0,0,8,0,0,0,1


    11: 14,0,0,4,0,1,1,1 -> lose 0 or 1 T7

    12: 15,0,0,5,0,1,1,1 -> lose 0 or 1 T7

    13: 16,0,0,6,0,1,1,1 -> lose 0 or 1 T7


    14a: 17,0,0,7,0,1,1,1 -> lose 0 or 1 T7

    14b: 17,1,1,7,1,1,0,1 -> lose 1 T5


    15: 18,1,1,8,1,1,0,1 -> lose 1 T5

    16: 19,2,2,19,1,1,0,1 -> lose 1 T5

    17: 20,2,2,10,1,1,0,1 -> lose 1 T5

    18: 21,2,2,11,1,1,0,1 -> lose 1 T5

    19: 22,2,2,12,1,1,0,1 -> lose 1 T5

    20: 23,2,2,13,1,1,0,1 -> lose 1 T5


    21-30: starts to depend on enemy lineup, best use battle simulators

    the same combination could work on one enemy lineup and make you lose T8 units on another enemy lineup

  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    Quote from TanarisJupiter

    You reduced T8 health from 90 to 85 to match only to this 1 random not confirmed fight report am I right? In my model reducing HP also helps but 90 HP is 90 HP for me and I won't use "dirty" patch for my model because at the end we all know that 85HP T8 cannot be true even when it fits without breaking other matches.

    Erm no. I reduced it to 88 HP (not 85) to match the fight report (that I also comfirmed myself; layer 11) and for several other mismatched reports where 0 unit losses would be predicted but the game generated some actual losses:


    [enemy] vs [ally] => [lost ally]


    Layer 6:

    [5,22,7] vs [2,0,0,1,0,0,0,1] => lost [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1]

    [3,23,7] vs [1,0,0,1,0,0,0,1] => lost [1,0,0,1,0,0,0,1]


    Layer 8:

    [8,29,8] vs [7,0,0,1,0,0,0,1] => lost [0,0,0,1,0,0,0,1]


    Layer 10:

    [3,37,11] vs [26,3,0,0,0,0,0,1] => lost [14,3,0,0,0,0,0,1] (this one is also OK without the “hack”)
    [10,36,6] vs [10,0,0,1,0,0,0,1] => lost [0,0,0,1,0,0,0,1]


    Layer 11:

    [9,41,8,1] vs [3,1,1,4,0,2,1,1] => lost [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1]


    I’ve already come across few issues where the game mechanics didn't match the explanation on the forum; e.g. lower calculated wraiths damage than explained on forum and damage not being rounded up, but normally (up or down). And I wouldn’t be surprised if devs implementation of 90 HP isn’t really treated as 90 HP. But we will never know that without the actual detailed game reports.


    Quote from 37016

    Expected loss is 1 ghouls and 1 vampire thralls real loss is 1 ghouls. I can maybe provide more examples if needed


    krneki

    TanarisJupiter could you try to validate the outcome with your model

    Yes, my model does predict 1 excess lost T3 unit, but for now I don’t know how it wouldn’t. Like you said, there could be something more to the game mechanics that we don’t know yet or have understood wrong; OR GAME BUGS. Without the actual detailed game reports, we have to work with vague unit descriptions and experienced battles and reproduce those with our own understanding; our models won't be 100% correct, there will always be some unexplained mismatch.

  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    Cultists.


    If you don't eliminate them immediately, they will buff their random ally which will deal more damage to your units. Cultists bring in this randomness and can slightly alter the outcome (losses). So if you don't plan on eliminating them immediately, you'll have to rerun the simulator several times to see possible outcomes. It is usually 50/50 chance to get one or another outcome.

  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    Thank you, and dang it.


    I was able to reproduce the same setup and outcome in the game.

    I can't figure out where it could go wrong and I might need some help here.


    Oi TanarisJupiter, may I ask you if your model properly predicts one lost T8 unit here?

  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    Here is the new simulator version that could also be the final.

    Or at least it gets all my saved battles right.

    Will also update it in my first post.


    Change: added unit size priority.

    simulate_vampire_v5.txt

    simulate_werewolf_v5.txt


    Pfft applying hotfix. No end to this :(

    simulate_vampire_v5.1.txt

    simulate_werewolf_v5.1.txt

    Minor improvements, zombies buffs and debuffs carry over to revived zombies, renamed beasts to hellmaws.

    simulate_vampire_v5.2.txt

    simulate_werewolf_v5.2.txt


  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    Kapetanios and S1N1STRO are correct about T6 ally units NOT randomly slowing down enemies.


    In fact, the size of groups comes in play when unit groups are tied in speed.


    1) rear enemy units with 4 speed:

    - if bonewings size >= wraiths size, then bonewings will be attacked first and wraiths later

    - if wraiths size > bonewings size, then wraiths will be attacked first and bonewings later


    2) front enemy units with 1 speed:

    - if bloated corpses size >= bone giants size, then bloated corpses will be attacked first and wraiths bone giants later

    - if bone giants size > bloated corpses size, then bone giants will be attacked first and bloated corpses later


    Consider this specific example that I got from layer 59:


    skeletons = 13

    zombies = 26

    cultists = 3

    bonewings = 16

    corpses = 7

    wraiths = 10

    revenants = 12

    giants = 8


    T1 = 48

    T2 = 60

    T3 = 50

    T4 = 16

    T5 = 1


    losses were:

    60 T2

    2 T3

    1 T5


    Take note that I didn't use T6 units that would scramble the units order. And that no T1 casualties had occured.

    That's because T1 units attacked bone giants first (8 size) and T3 units had to later deal with bloated corpses (7 size) which caused casualties in T3 units (14 damage that took out 2 T3 units).

  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    So I've finally figured out those darn zombies, and it's super simple:

    - if they are destroyed immediately in the beginning (first round first turn, usually done by T1 units in beginner layers), they will deal a set 1 damage on their turn

    - if they are destroyed in any later turn, they will attack with full damage on their turn


    Updated simulator in such regard, it should now work perfectly for beginner layers.

    Will also update files in my original post.


    Edit: I got it wrong, thank you S1N1STRO for correction.

    Here is a hotfix. The text output regarding revived zombies will have to be corrected later.


    simulate_vampire_v4.1.txt

    simulate_werewolf_v4.1.txt

  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    Thank you, but it's not yet perfect.

    I'm now looking into zombies revival mechanics.

    For a while I had suspected that revived zombies cannot attack on their first round.


    I was always doing the first layer (2 skelets + 9 zombies vs 7 bats/wolves (T1) + 2 ghouls/ravagers (T2) and my sim would properly calculate one lost T1. A forum user had messaged me about them using 7 T1 + 1 T2 combo which also results in one lost T2, but my sim calculates 3 lost T1 + 1 lost T2 (wrong and too much).


    So for now I'm testing two theories:

    Either they revive in the same turn and don't attack, or they revive the next round.

  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    It's the work of the usual amateur research with practical testing (hypothesis and imagination, battle outcome, try to explain and match up displayed units loss). It started with a classic pen and paper, then with coding as battles became more complex and to try out ideas faster.


    Q&A about unit abilities were posted here:
    Path to Ancestry - Q&A


    But I noticed several discrepancies between Q&A answers and the actual game mechanism.

    - In my opinion, the wraiths damage multiplier is wrongly explained, in their given example the damage percent is exaggerated. And it also isn't mentioned anywhere that wraiths ingore unit typing, only T2 units resist them with 50% resistance). I noticed this in battles with active wraiths and T6 units where reported T6 unit losses were lower than expected and it matched this theory of mine.

    - I've come across situations where calculated damage appeared to be rounded normally and not rounded up. The most obvious example was in battles with active revenant's debuff and 21 T4 units attacking 21 bonewings. 21 bonewings have 63 hp and T4 units deal 21 * 7 * 0.50 * 0.85 = 62,475 damage. If it was rounded up, it would equal 63 damage and would eliminate bonewings. But nope, 1 bonewing survived (theoretically speaking, the damage was rounded down to 62 hp and 1 bonewing survived with 1 hp) and dealt 6 * 1.50 (type advantage) * 0.75 (T4 unit debuff) = 6.75 => 7 damage to T4 units and eliminated 1 of my T4 units with 4 hp.

    - I suspect the T6 unit ability might also work in a slightly different way than explained in this Q&A.


    Unit abilities in english were posted here:

    Help Needed: Path of Ancestry Troop Stats (Tiers 3–8)

    And I also slowly unlocked these units on my own.


    However, I still get unexplained mishaps here and there (mismatch between my calculations and actual outcomes). And I will never be sure if it's a mistake on my side or a game bug until I get to see the actual battle reports.



    As for T6 and T8 units: this is still all wrapped in theories.

    - T6: The "official" explanation is that only enemy units attacking T6 units are slowed down. But I also suspect that for each round the T6 unit is alive, one randomly chosen rear enemy unit is being slowed down. Afterall, rear enemy units could count as "attacking units" that are mentioned in T6 unit ability description.


    -T8: Should be self-explanatory. If T8 unit eliminates one enemy defending unit group, the excess damage transfers over to the next enemy defending unit group. Let's say we pit one T8 unit against 5 zombies (35 hp) and 2 skeletons (8 hp). When T8 unit attacks zombies and has type advantage (monster T8 vs brute zombies), it deals 30 * 1.50 = 45 damage to zombies and eliminates them. 10 excess damage would be transferred to the skeletons which also eliminates them.


    But I've only just unlocked this last T8 unit and have yet to do tests with it.

  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    Since a lot of poeple are asking how to beat certain levels and devs had not yet implemented battle report, here is the battle simulator I wrote for myself in python language, it should be near 100% accurate. Forum won't allow uploading python files, so text files it is.


    simulate_vampire_v6.2.txt

    simulate_werewolf_v6.2.txt


    How to use:

    1) rename .txt into .py to make it a python file

    2) you will need python interpreter to run python file (ask uncle google)

    3) input enemy unit numbers and your unit numbers

    4) run the python file and check the output


    Edit 1: Concluded with additional testing that T6 units only reduce rear enemy speed, front enemy units are seemingly not affected. That was wrong.


    Edit 2: Changed T6 unit mechanism to only slow down enemy units attacking T6 units. Now the battles should be pretty much straightforward and linear even with T6 units. Tested working with my layer 87, 88, 89 setups.


    Edit 3: Corrected T8 unit targeting mechanism and overall rework.


    Edit 4: Corrected revived zombies attack damage. If destroyed immediately at the start: 1 damage. Any later: full damage. That was wrong.


    Edit 4.1: Corrected revived zombie attack damage (thank you S1N1STRO).


    Edit 5: Added unit size priority into unit order (attacker, defender).


    Edit 5.1: Hotfix (attackers recalculate each round and defenders each turn).


    Edit 5.2: Minor improvements, zombies buffs and debuffs carry over to revived zombies, renamed hell beasts to hellmaws.


    Edit 6: Added customizable parameter to slightly reduce T8 unit health, now it shows proper unit losses at lower layers when using T8 units.


    Edit 6.1: Expanded battle statistics (added starting, lost, remaining units).


    Edit 6.2: Added toggle option to turn on or off detailed battle progress. Can use it to only display statistics at the end.

  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    1) You used too many T1 units. T1 unit will attack the slowest enemy front unit, bloated corpses, with 8 (basic damage) * 1.25 (extra 25% damage in first round only) * 0.50 (type disadvantage) = 5 damage. You will need to beat 17 bloated corpses * 10 hp = 170 hp pool. This is 170 / 5 = 34 T1 unit and you need no more than that.


    2) You didn't use enough T4 units to destroy the slowest enemy rear unit, that is immortal cultists. T4 unit will attack immortal cultists with 7 (basic damage) * 0.50 (type disadvantage) = 3.5 damage. You will need to beat 26 * 1 hp = 26 hp pool. This is 26 / 3.5 = 8 (rounded up) T4 units minimum (but any more also doesn't make it any better).


    Then wraiths attack your T2 units and bonewings destroy your T4 units.


    3) You didn't use enough T3 units to destroy zombies. T3 unit will attack zombies with 6 (basic damage) * 0,50 (type disadvantage) * 1,33 (extra 33% damage against slow units) = 4 damage. You will need to beat 21 * 7 = 147 hp pool. This is 147 / 4 = 37 (rounded up) T3 unit minimum.


    4) You fill your remaining army capacity with T2 units, in this case 22 (340 - 34*2 - 37*4 - 8*7 = 68; 68/3 = 22 at most).

  • Update feedback

    Its all hidden maths that is up to us to figure out.


    Here is a battle simulation for my level 34 to show how it works.
    (But man, those 31-40 layers are brutal even with most optimized builds)


    level34.txt

    Edit:
    - dire wolves / bats = T1
    - ravagers / ghouls = T2
    - night stalkers / slaves = T3
    - phantom prowlers / banshees = T4

    you can swap words in notepad if needed

  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    Quote from zemlqrski
    Code
    1. Can anyone help me with level 32?https://prnt.sc/799-1-gCt8cH

    optimal by lost blood:

    - unit capacity: 329

    - unit build: 49x T1, 29x T2, 22x T3, 8x T4

    - lost units: 49x T1, 28x T2, 0x T3, 8x T4

    - lost blood: 1190


    optimal by lost units:

    - unit capacity: 272

    - unit build: 31x T1, 34x T2, 13x T3, 8x T4

    - lost units: 31x T1, 33x T2, 6x T3, 8x T4

    - lost blood: 1205



    whichever you prefer

  • Ancestral Ruins combo making

    another example that should now be fully accurate, this time for level 27
    (does not include cultists that would give +10% damage to their random allies)


    setup:

    14 skeletons + 31 zombies + 21 cultists + 15 birds + 11 corpses vs

    22 dire wolves (I) + 30 ravagers (II) + 26 night stalkers (III) + 6 phantom stalkers (IV)

    lost units:

    22 dire wolves (I) + 20 ravagers (II) + 6 phantom stalkers (IV)


    battle plan level 27.txt


    start:


    end: